(no subject)

[learnedax]

Catching up on the olympics, thanks to TiVo, has made me realize how many strong parallels they have with Pennsic. From the athletic core which revives ancient tradition (with champions contesting points ranging from archery to fencing) to the strong cultural representations of diverse homelands, there's a big cognitive similarity. When landscape-transforming temporary construction, ingrained rivalries, and a healthy dose of pomp and circumstance are taken into account, I begin to seriously wonder whether the two events serve similar psychological purposes.

This nicely dovetails into two longstanding discussions that came up again at war: first, is there any significant difference between Pennsic and a large sci-fi convention, and second, is the role of martial activity within the SCA truly a critical element, or merely a historical quirk?

Specifically, if fighting, as the Olympic tradition seems to, serves a higher purpose than being yet another fun thing that people do, it represents a qualitative difference between the SCA and other things that the counterculture does... And if it's just a diversion for a bunch of stick-jocks, then what is Pennsic but a themed con?

Thoughts?

Comments

[siderea]

WorldCon is not, I think, focused around being transformative, the way Scadians relate to Pennsic. Scadians talk about Magic Moments, which I think is analogous to the driving thirst of SF Fen for that "Sensowonda". I think it's the same sort of appetite (exoticism), but it takes two very different forms in those two societies (and a third form in BM). Pennsic-goers long to be transported by their experience. Not all of the m are history-oriented, but all of them want the real world to fall away and for them to feel, briefly, like they're someone or somewhere else; a crossing into liminal space. But WorldCon attendees aren't looking for that transport from their WorldCon experience. They're looking, perhaps, for their minds to be blown by fascinating and delightful ideas. I think they're looking for intellectual raport, a camraderie of intellect and fancy. Perhaps some of them would like to chime in?

The equivalent at BM is, I think, the loss of self. Much of BM pursues the ecstatic as opposed to the exotic. This is the commonality between the poets and the partiers, the dancers and the druggies.
o

[matildalucet.livejournal.com]

"transported by their experience." THAT'S what I was trying to bring my mind to. It's hard to get a periodoid atmosphere in a hotel. Too much polish, too much modern-looking staff. The Coopers make an attempt (or so I tell myself, regardless of what they think they're doing) to blend in and I can smile at them and not get distracted. No matter how nice hotel staff is, they don't look like us, don't sound like us, and I feel like an alien in a sideless surcoat in their space (at least at Birka).

[alexx-kay.livejournal.com]

I found fandom long before the SCA, and cons (in general) were certainly "liminal space" for me at the time. I think that a huge part of what made it so impressive for me (and, I suspect, many others of my cohort) was the sense of having found My People, when I hadn't previously known that they even existed. Nowadays, I am with My People almost constantly, so cons are no longer so exciting to me as they once were.

[siderea]

Just to confirm we're on the wavelength: Are you sure you're using "liminal" correctly? Substitute "ritual" and tell me if that sentence still says what you meant for it to say. It does not mean merely "special", and it certainly doesn't mean "impressive", "convivial", "homelike", or "having found My People". Is your second sentence suppose to demonstrate the first, or is it more "in addition to" the first?

See metahacker's comment below about "bringing self along" -- do you agree?

[alexx-kay.livejournal.com]

I believe that I understand what "liminal" means, and that is is close in idea-space to "ritual". My subjective experience of "having found my People" -- when I hadn't previously known that they even existed, which is a vital element -- was very like the (successful) ritual experiences I have had. To use another term from upthread, it was very much a Magic Moment.

On further reflection, there is a significant difference in that that moment of first discovery is not something I sought out, nor that I try to (or think I could) replicate. At least some SCAdians view the creation of such moments as an important goal. So I guess I more or less agree with your point :-)

Regarding "bringing self along": I don't strongly disagree with metahacker, but I think he is describing his own experience more than a universal. At any rate, I have observed people with an opposite polarity to what he describes.

My experience at my first con was not one of leaving myself behind, but of leaving my everyday hide-for-survival mask behind for the first time. Mind, I never identified myself with that mask, and have had little need for it in more recent decades.