(no subject)

[learnedax]

Catching up on the olympics, thanks to TiVo, has made me realize how many strong parallels they have with Pennsic. From the athletic core which revives ancient tradition (with champions contesting points ranging from archery to fencing) to the strong cultural representations of diverse homelands, there's a big cognitive similarity. When landscape-transforming temporary construction, ingrained rivalries, and a healthy dose of pomp and circumstance are taken into account, I begin to seriously wonder whether the two events serve similar psychological purposes.

This nicely dovetails into two longstanding discussions that came up again at war: first, is there any significant difference between Pennsic and a large sci-fi convention, and second, is the role of martial activity within the SCA truly a critical element, or merely a historical quirk?

Specifically, if fighting, as the Olympic tradition seems to, serves a higher purpose than being yet another fun thing that people do, it represents a qualitative difference between the SCA and other things that the counterculture does... And if it's just a diversion for a bunch of stick-jocks, then what is Pennsic but a themed con?

Thoughts?

Comments

[herooftheage.livejournal.com]

is the role of martial activity within the SCA truly a critical element, or merely a historical quirk?

Evidence for the former is that we don't seem to be able to get the same effect without it. You want to build a yearly large scale event that draws people from lots of different kingdoms, and you need to have a "war." The large scale other things I know of - Known World Dance and the Heralds symposia - don't happen every year, and they don't do nearly as good a job of attracting people outside of their core activity.

If the fighting were a historical quirk, then we ought to be able to have a Pennsic-like (though smaller) event without it. To date, nobody has even suggested such a thing, much less had one, that I know of.

[jducoeur]

As I replied to umbran, I don't buy it. Every club has one gigantic central event that people come to from all over. But also oddly universal is the fact that there is usually *one* such event per year, per activity. Ours happens to be fighting-centric, which is because the club is fighting-centric. But I'm pretty sure the event would still happen if armored combat didn't exist -- it would just be a radically different event.

Consider also: the largest event in *this* Kingdom (Birka) isn't built around fighting -- it's built around shopping. The fighting is just one event there, not particularly more important than a dozen other activities...

[umbran.livejournal.com]

But also oddly universal is the fact that there is usually *one* such event per year, per activity

Interesting irony that the "Big Jamboree" term you used elsewhere defies that rule. The Boy Scouts of America have their National Jamboree only once every 4 years.

[herooftheage.livejournal.com]

But also oddly universal is the fact that there is usually *one* such event per year, per activity.

Three counterexamples off the top of my head: the American Contract Bridge League has four; the United States Chess Federation has three or four, depending on what you think of the US Amateur Tournament. The Boy Scouts have their big shindig once every four years - though you might argue that Philmont, North Star, Ten Mile River and the other mega-camps qualify as "nationals" - though going to Philmont is more like going on haj:one is only expected to do it once in a lifetime, though of course some people will do more.

But I'm pretty sure the event would still happen if armored combat didn't exist -- it would just be a radically different event.

That doesn't make the fighting at pan-SCA events an accidental cause, but the seed force for us. The point is that armored combat does exist in the central location in our group, and is thing that all the recurring interkingdom events have in common. I don't know of a single yearly inter-kingdom event that draws outside of its core constituency that didn't start with fighting.

Consider also: the largest event in *this* Kingdom (Birka) isn't built around fighting -- it's built around shopping. The fighting is just one event there, not particularly more important than a dozen other activities...

You say that because you are not a fighter. Take away the shopping - do you think the fighting would get affected one iota? Take away the fighting, and the merchants will start yelling as that fifth (or whatever percentage you think is right) disappears.

You'll also notice that people don't travel 1000 miles to Birka to go shopping. That is simply not a big enough draw, because there'll be something in their kingdom that compares, or they can use the internet, or the distance is too far.

But it makes sense for me to travel 1200 miles to go fight at Gulf Wars, because fighting scales up. 1000 fighters is better than 500, and 1500 is better than 1000; and though it isn't linear, it is certainly closer to that than any other SCA activity I know of, once you are past the small numbers. (50 fighters are a lot better than 5, but I suspect that is true of dancers and merchants as well.)

It is one of the things that makes fighting a particularly good seed: as it grows it attracts people from farther away faster than anything else we do.

Now it is certainly true that has an event grows, fighting is less of a percentage than at the start: back in the Old Days, fighters made up about a third of the Pennsic population: now they are about an eighth. I don't think that has started happening at either Estrella or Gulf Wars (though it has been a while since I've gone to Estrella), but in both of those cases, the sites are somewhat challenging, being either in a desert of a swamp.

[jducoeur]

Take away the shopping - do you think the fighting would get affected one iota?

No -- but about 75% of the attendees wouldn't go. Essentially all of Carolingia goes to Birka each year, and the *vast* majority are going for the shopping and court. The fighting is essentially a niche activity there. (Unlike Pennsic, where the fighting has a significant spectator component.) Birka without fighting would still be Birka, and would probably still be the largest event in the East.

The scaling point is valid, and I don't deny that fighting occupies a special place in the Society. But I do think that place is sometimes a bit overstated, and this is one of those cases. The desire to have grand gatherings is strong, and I think the Society would have them with or without fighting. The efficient-seed nature of fighting tends to often make it central to such gatherings (and *may* make them somewhat larger), but I don't think it's a necessary cause...

an additional question

[herooftheage.livejournal.com]

Is Birka really larger than GNE?

Re: an additional question

[learnedax.livejournal.com]

I would have said absolutely not, but hard data is hard to find (as is so often the case). 2003 Birka had 1600 (http://www.birka.org/merchants/FAQ.htm), and my impression was this year's was roughly the same scale, whereas GNE (a much more remote event) continues to grow, and I would estimate its attendance at 2000+, maybe higher.

Re: an additional question

[jducoeur]

That's the impression I've gotten, yes. I confess that I don't have the numbers to hand -- you'd have to ask ian_gunn to be sure...

Re: an additional question

[tpau]

i believe Birkah counted itself at 2000 and this past GNE was 1800ish