Linguistic pedantry

[learnedax]

A couple of days ago when some octopus-related matter was touched upon in conversation, a coworker commented that he'd always thought octopi the proper plural, but recently heard that it was incorrect, and one should say octopuses. Having heard similar and looked it up before, I said that my dictionary accepts either. However, I wondered what the reasoning was, and so I looked at a few sites (e.g. here and here) that claim octopi is incorrect. Their reasoning is that since octopus is the Latinized form of the Greek ὀκτώπους, and thus the plural should be ὀκτώποδες, rendered octopodes in English.

Is it just me, or is that an inherently flawed argument? I would think that if we use a Latinate singular, regardless of its root etymology, we are compelled to use a Latinate plural*. If you wish to use octopodes, the singular should then be oktopous, shouldn't it?

*Or arguably an English plural, if we consider the word to be sufficiently adopted into the language and the English plural flows more naturally with our standard practices. In this case not only is there a standard of Latinate -us in -i, but -uses is clumsy and jarring.

Comments

[oakleaf-mirror.livejournal.com]

I've generally preferred octopodes as the plural, though I'm not convinced your argument is wrong. But I could argue that the English word octopus is a reasonable transliteration, to English, of the greek ὀκτώπους, rather than a Latinization of it. We don't, generally, refer to a single female octopus as an octopa, for example, so we don't necessarily treat it as a latin word. I would therefore argue the we import the greek plural, as octopodes, or use English guidelines and get octopuses. The later form grates, though, so I prefer octopodes.

[learnedax.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, if the English word were a corruption of the Greek directly, I think it would make sense to use octopodës (although I don't know whether the transliteration would be distortive enough to suggest using an English plural, ugly though it be). The tricky part is that all the sources I've found agree that it comes by way of New Latin. So a Latinate term was medievally coined, and its earliest plural given as octopi.

Of course, if you use octopodës I have no way of knowing whether you are using it as the plural of octopus or octopous (such a fine distinction, the short or long 'u'), unless, I suppose, it is in formal writing, where you ought to emphasize the latter as a foreign term but not the former. So, er, write whichever you like, I guess.

Personally, I like concision, and octopi is the most concise choice.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

I tend to use "octopuses", on the theory that it's an English word, whatever its history was, but I will also use "octopodes" as well.

Of course, I don't REALLY buy the argument against "octopi", because, while it IS a Greek word originally, the Romans took the word and used it in Latin. And, after all, my LJ name is "Xiphias", which is also a Latin word for an edible sea creature that was taken directly from the Greek.

[metahacker.livejournal.com]

"Octopods" is commonly used. Just to add more fuel to the fire. Also, some use "octopus" as the plural form as well.

I researched this back when I was thinking of getting one...

[learnedax.livejournal.com]

Yeah, octopod might be an acceptable Anglicized version, and at least the English plural sounds alright.

[umbran.livejournal.com]

So, let me get this straight. We have to struggle to find a good reason to decide which foreign language rule to use in English? Doesn't that sound a bit... ironic?

As the saying goes - English follows other languages down dark alleys, mugs them, and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar. We don't use the rules we pick up in a regular manner, so there is no clearly correct decision.

I say, use "octopi" - I expect it is what most currently living speakers of American English were taught. Anything else is revisionist linguistics. We already have problems with folks rationalizing rewrites of history. But now we need to change all the language books too? Oi.

Octopi and hippopotami with virii, oh my...

[chiefoperator.livejournal.com]

Cecil Adams' Straight Dope has an excellent piece on plurals: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mplurals.html (sorry, not sure how to make that an active link). *Caution: has plenty of anatomical terms, if people care.*

It claims that Octopus in latin is a 3rd declension noun and that octopodes is the proper latin plural, but also in general supports the use of english plurals of foreign words.

I don't know enough to speak authoritatively as to how correct it is, but it pretty well covers the ground... Apparently "hippopotami" is fine, but "rhinoceri" is no good... And "virii" is just right out, for reasons which are somewhat obscure.

Re: Octopi and hippopotami with virii, oh my...

[learnedax.livejournal.com]

How foolish, that I didn't think to consult Cecil (or in this case his staff) . That certainly covers a lot of interesting irregularities, and is pretty clear in its reasons against octopi. How unfortunate. The general trend has seemed to be, and the examples they give in this article generally fit, to use the plural that is least awkward (provided it is correct in either English or the originating language)... and both octopuses and octopodes are fairly awkward. I guess I will try to wrap my brain around the latter.

Re: Octopi and hippopotami with virii, oh my...

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

I'll note that at my place of work (a baby pharma) virii is the generally accepted/used term.

Re: Octopi and hippopotami with virii, oh my...

[learnedax.livejournal.com]

Well, virus is apparently a unique or close to unique Latin word, and even Roman grammarians seem to have been in disagreement about which declension it should be... the plural is not attested anyplace, but viri is considered slightly less likely than vira, vire, or virora, each of which has its own problems. Again, -uses is just an awkward glob, so I can understand the desire to use viri* when you say the word all the time.

*(I'm guessing here that you are relating oral usage, and that the word is being pronounced vir-i, rather than vir-i-i, as radii or genii would be. The ii version is surprisingly common, despite being neither logical nor easier to say...)

Re: Octopi and hippopotami with virii, oh my...

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

Yes, we mostly use it in discussion (and we use the vir-i version), although on occation it shows up on overheads as "virii". The thing is, if you don't know Latin those "more likely" alternatives don't strike you as a pluralization, whereas virii is immediately identifiable as the plural of virus. That makes it a more popular pluralization, regardless of how technically correct it is.

Re: Octopi and hippopotami with virii, oh my...

[learnedax.livejournal.com]

I think viri should always be preferable to virii.

In terms of the obviousness of pluralization, I suppose vira is not as clear to an English speaker as viri, but it's really a question of whether you've encountered this particular special case before. Viruses is the only version that would be apparent to anyone who knew no Latin, and the others are no less obvious than genus/genera...

[doozer4200.livejournal.com]

personally I vote for the Latinate plural even though the Greek one is prettier.... if we consistently Hellenized ALL the words that came to us through Latin from Greek originals, that would be.... a hell of a lot of words.

Interestingly I think we're more consistent with our Greek influence in pre-fixes (like the "eu" prefix which is still around quite a lot, or the "a" negative (er... privative?)

Ah, grammar.

[laurion]

I've always tended towards octopodes (but platypi, not platypodes; fortunately, the use of that plural is such a rare occurence....).

[learnedax.livejournal.com]

Octopus and platypus occupy precisely the same etymological niche, though. Their treatment ought to be the same.

Going the other direction, I recently noticed that there is at least one -odes plural already in common English use, in antipodes. On the rare occasion that the singular is used it is generally antipode, but the proper singular would of course be antipous...

[laurion]

I know they're kissing cousins, as far as words go, and should be seated on the same side of the isle at a wedding, but for some reason I tend to platypi. As stated, it's just how I tend to go. Maybe platypodes just isn't cute enough.

[baron-saturday.livejournal.com]

To my mind there are three points of discussion here.

Primi (sorry, couldn't resist): Correctness. We can hash this one forever. I think it boils down to, there is no clearly correct form.

Secondly: Communication, i.e., do people know we mean more than one octopus? In this case, all versions seem to work just fine.

Thirdly: Cleverness. Which version is most amusing and relevant to the conversation. Since it ain't English, and the other two points seem irresolvable, I think this is the only point that matters.

So I say, use whichever one you like best. I personally like octopi, and don't care much that it's wrong.